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Old 04-13-2012, 11:22 AM   #41
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Just found another article about it: NTSB looking into Kansas RV crash that killed 5 - Post Bulletin

I think it's good those lawmakers quoted aren't jumping to assume the driver did anything wrong, and they're not saying they're going to change any laws just to get voter approval.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:52 AM   #42
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Default Minnesota class D license

I know that in Oregon you can drive a motor home over 26,000 pounds with a class C license (class C is the basic lic in Or). With a class C lic you can tow a trailer up to 10,000 pounds, 15,000 if the trailer is a recreational vehicle. An RV in Or has a stove and bed. I just read the Minnesota drivers manual and it states that a driver with a class D lic can operate a motor home over 26,000 pounds if it is for personal use. It also states that a class D Driver can tow a trailer of 10,000 pounds or less and the trailer can weigh more than 10,000 , but the combined gross vehicle weight of the vehicle (motor home) and trailer is 26,000 pounds or less. The three axle motor home and three axle trailer must be rated over 26,000. I saw the 57,000 number in a few news articles. As sad as this accident was, it looks like if the young man driving had a class D lic, he was towing to heavy of a trailer. I have a 10,000 pound trailer and it has two axles and a much smaller main frame. In the articles I read they did not say if any of the 18 people were in the trailer. Does anyone know if they were? Before I started building my motor home I looked at a lot of used conversions that were being offered with stacker trailers. Almost all of the sales people told me that no CDL was required to tow the trailer because it was being towed with a motor home. At race tracks I often ask people with conversions towing large trailers (over 10 K) if they have CDL and they say "I don't need one it is an RV".
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:49 AM   #43
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Kenn, here's the statute in MN as it pertains to the class D license that the driver of crash had:


Statute 171.02:
(c) Class D drivers' licenses are valid for:

(1) operating all farm trucks if the farm truck is:

(i) controlled and operated by a farmer, including operation by an immediate family member or an employee of the farmer;

(ii) used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies, including hazardous materials, to or from a farm;

(iii) not used in the operations of a common or contract motor carrier as governed by Code of Federal Regulations, title 49, part 365; and

(iv) used within 150 miles of the farm;

(2) notwithstanding paragraph (b), operating an authorized emergency vehicle, as defined in section 169.011, subdivision 3, whether or not in excess of 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight;

(3) operating a recreational vehicle as defined in section 168.002, subdivision 27, that is operated for personal use;

(4) operating all single-unit vehicles except vehicles with a gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds, vehicles designed to carry more than 15 passengers including the driver, and vehicles that carry hazardous materials;

(5) notwithstanding paragraph (d), operating a type A school bus or a multifunction school activity bus without a school bus endorsement if the requirements of subdivision 2a are satisfied, as determined by the commissioner;

(6) operating any vehicle or combination of vehicles when operated by a licensed peace officer while on duty; and

(7) towing vehicles if:

(i) the towed vehicles have a gross vehicle weight of 10,000 pounds or less; or

(ii) the towed vehicles have a gross vehicle weight of more than 10,000 pounds and the combination of vehicles has a gross vehicle weight of 26,000 pounds or less.


Now, if you read it carefully it's not clear, hahahaaha. If you read (3) it allows the kid to drive an rv, period. There is nothing there about how heavy a trailer you can pull with an rv. It just says you can drive an rv. Now let's read (7). That makes it look like you can only pull a 10k lb trailer on a class D, or, over 10k lbs but combined less than 26k. Since (3) says nothing about trailers it doesn't prohibit pulling a trailer of any weight with an rv. You would think you would have to abide by (7), but it's not clear. And apparently it's not clear to whomever they've interviewed for the various articles since all the "experts" that I've seen quoted said he was okay to drive that rig on a class D. I am just a local city cop and don't know much about traffic law. I'm going to quiz our traffic "experts" and see what they think.

The more I've read this the more confused I get. It looks like one could drive a HDT pulling an rv trailer too. Here is the MN definition of an rv:

Statute 168.002, Subd. 27.Recreational vehicle.

(a) "Recreational vehicle" means travel trailers including those that telescope or fold down, chassis-mounted campers, motor homes, tent trailers, and converted buses that provide temporary human living quarters.

(b) "Recreational vehicle" is a vehicle that:

(1) is not used as the residence of the owner or occupant;

(2) is used while engaged in recreational or vacation activities; and

(3) is either self-propelled or towed on the highways incidental to the recreational or vacation activities.

So, since (3) in 171.02 allows you to drive any rv, regardless of weight, I think you could. And this would clearly be over the 26k combined if you pulled just about any 5th wheel with an hdt. I think it's all how you interpret the language. And, I'm guessing there's been no legal precedent here to clarify it.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #44
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scarey part - is if the insurance didnt cover the kid driving, or they determine he was in violation of the law they wont pay off !

I know of a case in florida where the insurance refused to pay because they proved the owner KNEW the front tire (that blew) on the RV needed to be replaced (they sighted improperly maintained RV).

My insurance was very specific & i had to LIST authorized drivers by name...
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:11 AM   #45
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I don't know about that Don. Don't they have to prove something like gross negligence or something? My neighbor across the alley got his car stuck in the snow and sat out there flooring it and slamming the shifter back and forth drive to reverse. For about 20 minutes and finally blew the seals out of the trans and the spraying fluid caught fire and burned up the car, and melted my vinyl siding on my garage. His insurance bought him a car and fixed my siding. And what he did to cause the fire was total idiocy.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:11 AM   #46
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It is even against the law to spin the tires in our city, so he was clearly violating the law. Yet they paid.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:22 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob86ZZ4 View Post
I don't know about that Don. Don't they have to prove something like gross negligence or something? My neighbor across the alley got his car stuck in the snow and sat out there flooring it and slamming the shifter back and forth drive to reverse. For about 20 minutes and finally blew the seals out of the trans and the spraying fluid caught fire and burned up the car, and melted my vinyl siding on my garage. His insurance bought him a car and fixed my siding. And what he did to cause the fire was total idiocy.
if they didnt take the time to investigate that fire (interviewing witnesses) and prove the cause of the blown seal was the over rev-ing etc then they were pretty stupid....but comparatively the pay out was cheap.

you can bet - w/ 5 deaths, that vehicle insurance company is investigating...there are probably other insurance coverages (life) that are also investigating. My guess is they already have the tire carcass in hand and certainly the vehicle and trailer are impounded.

if the insurance company proves that there was improper maintenance and the owner KNEW or was avoiding that maintenance they will take steps to avoid paying off.

if they can show that the kid was not properly licensed and the owner KNEW, theyll avoid paying off for sure !
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:28 AM   #48
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I even told the insurance claim guy that my neighbor is an idiot. He would often get stuck out there and floor it. And I heard him get stuck this time and went out to watch as he began his flooring excersise. I would have helped him if he didn't always get stuck and drive like an idiot. I went back inside and listened to him flooring it for about 20 minutes and then smelled the smoke and ran out to see the car burning up. I told all that to his ins. agent too.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:32 AM   #49
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wouldnt be the first adjuster i met that didnt give a rats ass
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:56 PM   #50
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Bob-
That has got to be one of the funniest stories I have ever heard! I'm sure you weren't laughing when your siding melted, but you gotta admit it's a hoot. The only sad thing is that you did not get it on video, it would have gone viral on youtube!
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #51
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I didn't take any video, but I got some stills:





That's my garage behind it:






He's such a dope he went and bought another PT Cruiser. I told him he should get something with all wheel drive since we do have snow in MN on occasion.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob86ZZ4 View Post
I don't know about that Don. Don't they have to prove something like gross negligence or something? My neighbor across the alley got his car stuck in the snow and sat out there flooring it and slamming the shifter back and forth drive to reverse. For about 20 minutes and finally blew the seals out of the trans and the spraying fluid caught fire and burned up the car, and melted my vinyl siding on my garage. His insurance bought him a car and fixed my siding. And what he did to cause the fire was total idiocy.
My brother did something similar when he got Mother's AMC Javelin stuck in the driveway in a huge snowstorm. Held the throttle down and slammed the A/T from reverse to drive until the transmission gave up. Had to be towed away.

People who do this are really, really ignorant and possibly just as stupid. The reason the car won't move is because of the snow under the car that it is sitting on.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:41 PM   #53
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Mother makes a statement (doesnt provide much detail) -

Mother calls teen at wheel of RV crash a 'hero;' 5 family members killed in Kansas crash | StarTribune.com
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #54
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I found an article that said the trailer said, "G-DoggRacing.com" on the side of it. I went there and there's a picture of the rv and trailer. Anybody that can figure out who made that coach from that picture: www.g-doggracing.com
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:37 PM   #55
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thats a haulmark logo on the coach.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:57 PM   #56
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Oh oh, I wonder if they're keeping an eye on the investigation?
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:01 PM   #57
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theres a fundraising effort going on too....it also contains a picture of their rig

Kerber fundraiser
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