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Old 03-25-2017, 06:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ChiefMechanicMark View Post
What year is your 60? Also what model # should look like 6067-XXXX with the XXXX being numbers and letters. This will let me know what your basic model is capable of. Most common from the 1990's were 6067-GK60 but then they moved into LK;MK and HK.
I could not find what you requested. The following (amongst other things) was on a sticker on the valve cover:

Family: 5DDXH14.OELY
Model Series 60. 14L
60RO840081
Mfg date April 2005

Thanks!
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:47 AM   #22
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That's because after 2000 the Germans started changing things around.
You have what used to be called a model 6067-HK60. This is a 14L size engine. They started out with 550HP and 1850 lb.ft. torque rated rpm was 2100 max. The torque was flat lined from 1200 to 1500 of 1850 lb.ft. then slowly drifted down to about 1250 lb.ft at 2100 rpm. Horsepower was inversed from (If I remember) was about 400 hp at 1200 rpm and ramped up to the 550 hp at 2100 rpm. They crossed paths at the 1500 rpm.
I believe you may have transposed the serial # which should be ten digits (06R0840081) This is the main number you need to know everything about this engine for part numbers, specifications, warranty questions, history of repairs. The detail of the system is down to the part numbers for every nut bolt and lock washer. If you have a good relationship with your dealer they can still look up everything in the history of warrantable repairs and sometimes if you know where it lived in previous life they can look up any repairs at any authorized dealer if they loaded them into the system.
As far as turning them up...Not a whole lot you can do to these as they were built big and very limited different parts available like cam shafts and injectors. The main thing they used to change between a few settings of horsepower and torque was just the computer programming. What drove the limits was cooling system capability. The transmissions and drivelines were all rated for the maximum torque of 2050 lb.ft. torque at the time. You would have to have a dealer plug in to your computer to see if you had a different horsepower available in your computer as they did have multiple settings in a lot of them, some had what was called cruise power engines which provided higher horsepower when in cruise then on foot throttle. They always offered a choice in the computer to opt into straight horsepower on both foot and cruise on those engines. The idea was driver incentive to get better fuel economy in cruise so if they gave them more horsepower they would be able to go faster up the hills so they would tend to use the cruise more often. Worked good for fleets to save money on fuel costs. They would also give their senior drivers the straight horsepower options as an incentive to stay with the company as they usually got better mileage anyway. Some of the computers on the engines had up to four different horsepower ratings. Only way to tell is have a dealer plug in and look.
Also on the rocker cover it used to be the third sticker back was the words "This engine designed to operate at..." and this was what the engine came out of the factory at. The first sticker on the left front of the cover was "Advertised" ratings. This was the capabilities of the engine design but not necessarily the parts in this engine could produce those ratings.
I hope this is helping.
BTW the model numbering has a lot of history behind them and a funny story too. For years Detroit Diesel which started as Gray Marine in the 1930's (Notice GM) was integrated with General Motors. They used to have model numbers that used letters to explain rotation (Left or right hand crankshaft rotation) so they would be installed in marine vessels for opposite prop rotation to make the vessel travel in a straight line. Years later they started using the marine gear do the reversal of the props so both engines could be right hand rotation thus cutting down on parts differences. The model numbers morphed into a series of numbers to explain what size, series and placement of items. For example the first engines were 6-71 so the serial number started with 6A and the model number would be 1067-RA. This showed first digit (1) was first engine series created. the next two digits (06) referred to the number of cylinders the next digit (7) referred to governor type. The letters (R) meant right hand rotation so a Left hand engine would be an "L" and the "A" was one of four letters "A;B;C;D" referred to placement of water pump/oil cooler; exhaust outlet; blower; and governor placement. Over the years and additional engine model numbers caused this to turn into a standardized 8 digit model number. So an 8V92 became a serial number of 08VFXXXXXX and the model number would be 8087-7826 so it was the eighth engine series, eight cylinders, limiting speed governor and the 7826 was Turbocharged, after cooled and truck specified for Paccar. (Also the "71" and "92" referred to the number of cubic inches per cylinder.)
The Series 60 being the first completely computerized (Never had mechanical governor system.) caused a slight dilemma so they had to come up with a lettering system to identify items. The engineer at the factory had a sense of humor (No joke here he personally shared this with me at a factory dinner.) The first part of the model number was easy... Since Detroit for some reason had skipped the number 6 in their numbers he latched onto it originally to come up with the "60" Series. So the model number started with a "6". It had six cylinders hence the "06" then it was a limiting speed governor system so "7". The next was a need for size of liters and computer series (DDEC Version) so the 11.1L was a "W" and the 12.7L was a "G" the DDEC version was "T" for DDEC 1 and a "U" for DDEC 2. So now the funny part... "W" stood for Wimpy and "G" stood for Giant. The "T" stood for Technical and the "U" stood for Ultimate.
Then as the engine advanced in horsepower and computers advanced he had to keep coming up with new ideas. See below:
DDEC 3 was "K" for Kool (C had been used for a previous engine series)
DDEC 4 and 5 were just faster and more storage capability so he said there was no reason to change the letter because externally they looked identical.
The liter size and horsepower were reclassified so he came up with L, M, B, and H
"L" (Little) was for the 11.1L 1400 lb.ft. torque
"M" (Medium) was for the 12.7L up to 400 HP 1450 lb.ft.torque
"B" (Big) was for the 12.7L from 425 to 450HP 1650 lb.ft. torque
"H" (Huge) was for the 14.0L 1850 lb.ft. torque
Then in 2000 DDC was sold to Daimler-Chrysler from Roger Penske and there was no more sense of humor allowed.
So that is a little history of Detroit Diesel engines.
Thanks for testing my memory...
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:02 AM   #23
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love the history lesson - thanks (seriously).
what differences are there between the MBE4000 and (I think its comparison) dd13? or is it the equivalent of some other DD model?
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:19 PM   #24
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Basically the MBE 4000 came to America (As did the MBE906 and MBE 904 both small bore inline engines) by way of Daimler-Chrysler through Detroit Diesel. The Series 60 was slated to have changes made to continue on into 2020 era prior to the sale of DDC from Penske. Once the sale went through though D-C stated they had better ideas... Their electronics on the first few years of the MBE series were somewhere along the lines of our DDEC 1 system. We were frustrated but if it was not a German idea it was not considered.
As things moved forward there was "Rebranding" done so the MBE 906 was slated for medium duty Sterling trucks and MBE 4000 became DD13 for Freightliner and Western Star (All owned by D-C. Then they came up with higher horsepower and increased torque packages and added the DD15 series. They're still MBE 4000 at heart.
They did finally start listening to DDC engineers about the advancements that were made with DDEC and finally started adding some of the technology.
Personally I left Detroit Diesel in 2006 and actually had been doing more of the other product lines than the MBE 4000. Since I was the dinosaur I took care of all the two strokes and Series 60 stuff as well as all the generators, Allisons and everything else that involved chassis, fabrication, head bottle washer... You get the idea.
I currently have one vehicle where I work that has a DD13 (2015 Freightliner Vaccon sewer sucker) that looks suspiciously like an MBE 4000 to me. It has given us zero issues so I have not played with it much at all.
I know the Germans have quality engineering abilities but it always frustrated me that if it was not their idea it couldn't be any useful or good.
I was involved in a sale of mining equipment repowers in two mines in the Pacific Northwest. The customers wanted cast iron flywheel housings on the engines we were going to install. They were MBE904 designed for off highway. The factory told us they do not offer a cast iron flywheel housing and would not consider offering one as "You don't need it." We explained to the factory people it doesn't matter what we want...The customer will not purchase these engines without the cast iron flywheel housing. Answer was still "No." So to avoid loosing a sale of 65 engines as well as the complete fabrication and installation of those engines at one mine and the same thing of 75 units at a separate mine I teamed up with another DDC distributor who was fighting the same battle for about 500 engines and we had our own cast iron flywheel housings manufactured at a local foundry. We sold all the engines as well as installations (Several million dollars when the dust settled.) and DDC would not warranty any of our engine installations. Thankfully no major engine issues and the minor stuff we just ate the warranty issues.
So with that long drawn out explanation I don't think I can help a lot on the MBE issues. Sorry...
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:39 PM   #25
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BTW if you haven't figured out yet MBE stands for "Mercedes Brand Engines"
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:42 PM   #26
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Thank you very much for the info.! I read it twice, just to be sure I got everything.

Getting that computer read is something I've been wanting to do for some time. I just hate going to a shop for a computer read. I feel like I'd be setting myself up for something.
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:44 AM   #27
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As long as you discuss up front what you are trying to accomplish with the service writer (If you can talk to the service manager do that.) most reputable dealers will read the information and some will print it out. I used to do it for free when I managed the branch for Pacific Detroit Diesel - Allison in Redmond and Spokane for good customer relations. The "corporate view" changed heavily during the take over so it became all about the money instead of customer service. (Second reason I started looking for another job.) The tooling started costing a lot of money so fees started getting attached to offset the purchase of the tools. Currently where I work we spend about $10,000 a year in subscription fees on our computers to be able to work on our own vehicles. So that's why there is a fee to connect a computer to your engine for three minutes to do a download.
You may be able to ask the warranty administrator to do a computer search for history of repairs as well as factory settings on the ECM (Engine Control Module) to see what it came with. That may answer a lot of the questions without having to plug into it. Just give them the 10 digit serial number.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:33 AM   #28
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Default Videos of tack and speedo

Here are two videos I did today to show how the truck performs from a start.
Both are from a standing start but with pushing the petal different, you will see the shift points and the tach and speedo.



..


Looking for your opinions
Thanks
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:35 PM   #29
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I couldn't get the first video to play all the way through but I think I saw enough. So first thing I heard you say was your speedometer is not accurate so if possible drive by your GPS for speed limits. Second thing I would suggest is put your transmission in manual and shift it between the 1200-1500 RPM If the gears are close enough to together the engine will pull the load just fine. Even if it dips to 1100 RPM or so, it should still be able to pull it. The more often you go up in RPM the lower your fuel economy will be. It does not hurt to "Lug" these engines into their torque range and keep it there. The high end if you have to go would be no more than 1600 -1700 max RPM to bring it back in after an upshift to the 1100-1200 RPM range.
Granted this is going to make you slower off the line but you will be surprised that even shifting this way it will still get up to road speed fairly quickly and you will gain fuel economy.
I know I always add stories but that is how I am...
I had a driver of a 400 HP Series 60 with a 10 speed manual transmission in an over the road truck who came into our Seattle facility complaining of low power and poor fuel economy. His average fuel economy was between 4 & 5 MPG He had a fully loaded 53 foot trailer so we were loaded at 80,000 pounds.
I plugged in my hand held computer (Prolink) and took him on our test drive route which included a long drawn out hill of about 2 miles at a 5% grade off of a draw bridge to a slight downhill about 1/4 mile long. We hit the bottom of the bridge grade doing about 45 mph at 2100 RPM in I think 7th gear. I watched him drive and said nothing as he shifted 2100-1600 keeping his foot flat on the floor the whole way but kept hitting 2100 everytime before would shift. As soon as the RPM dropped to 1600 he would downshift to a lower gear and the RPM would go back to 2100. We were doing 35 MPH at 2100 RPM in 6th gear at the top of the hill.
I had him turn around at the off ramp and drive back down to the bottom of the hill. There was a turn around so we did not have to go on the draw bridge but we had to start from a dead stop to go back up the hill. This time I told him he had to shift when I told him no arguments. I told him to run his throttle just the same but he had to shift when I said so. We took off in low gear and he shifted everytime I said which was at 1500 RPM. Half way up the hill we were in 10th gear and doing 60 MPH at 1200 RPM. He said he never would have believed it if I had not made him do it. The "Prolink" had a fuel consumption reading in it and we were using about 2 GPH (Gallons Per Hour) less fuel driving my way than his.
The Autoshift transmissions are great don't get me wrong... But they're still susceptible to having to anticipate what it can't see which is approaching grades and traffic. In manual transmissions I always use Low gear to get rolling so I have no chance to slip a clutch and then I never touch the clutch pedal, just using the RPM to shift (Floating) the gears. The Automatics are doing the same thing except they don't use the Low gear and in your case with out having 80,000 pounds or more it probably won't slip the clutch by taking off in 3rd gear.
I truly believe the more you can keep those RPM down the better fuel economy you will see.
Also be sure and test your speedometer and odometer accuracy aganst a stop watch and measured mile markers. If it's wrong your fuel mileage calculations will be wrong too.
Until you change rear axle ratios though you will never get Bushpilots fuel mileage.
Hope this helps...
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:40 PM   #30
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All that makes sense, but I leave the house I can do 4 stops and I am on the interstate, cruising at 65 mph. And of course interstate driving and then I find an exit 500 miles down the road, and that few shifts can make a different? Also I always use my gps for the speed, my speedo tells me 67-8 and I am doing 65. And I weigh with my toad, less than 35,000. I would like to get a computer hookup and then have them adjust the speedo at the same time. But just like the others here I don't want a surprise or whodoed. Have to find the right shop to get this all done.

Thanks Mark
Sam
And the bottom line is Bushpilot going to beat me till I change the real axle gears....
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:28 AM   #31
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I'll record a video on Thursday when I run to San Antonio.
In the 1st video I was surprised by the lack of skip/shifts.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushpilot View Post
I'll record a video on Thursday when I run to San Antonio.
In the 1st video I was surprised by the lack of skip/shifts.

I was real easy on the throttle, just to show what was going on. I try and get going to move traffic along.
Sam
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:50 PM   #33
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Welcome CMMark, nice to have your experience and knowledge on here.

Quick question, what exactly does the "Ugly Fix" do? I put one on my ISX, and it might help mpg slightly. Not sure it makes any less exhaust smoke. It does seem to run potentially a bit cooler, although haven't really tested it in high summer heat yet. My understanding is that it keeps the EGR closed, by tricking the computer for one of the sensors with a constant input for (atmospheric pressure)? Or something like that.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:09 PM   #34
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Sorry for not getting back to you sooner... So the simple answer is yes it keeps the EGR valve closed thus allowing your engine to only consume clean outside fresh air rather than stuffing dirty air from your exhaust back through the intake to be burnt again. This is why the claim of running cooler, since the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) "air" is straight out of the combustion chamber and is extremely hot, This is going to increase engine temperatures and that is why the EGR "air" goes through a cooler which is cooled by the coolant from the same cooling system that is trying to cool the entire engine, as well as the EGR gases causes the intake air to be increased in temperature as well.
Basic physics of an internal combustion engine shows, cooler air and cooler fuel makes an engine more efficient. If you think about it, one gallon of diesel fuel in an open container sitting on a table at 70 degrees has "X" number of BTU's what happens when it heats up to say 80 degrees? It expands, did I gain fuel? No, but I spilled my BTU's all over the table thus making the fuel less efficient. Same thing goes for air, the hotter it is the less efficient it is. That's why we use coolers for everything.
The concept of EGR is trying to use up the unburned fuel molecules from the first pass through the combustion chamber to keep it from going into the atmosphere, but at the expense of efficiency of the engine. Fuel economy went down heavily when EGR was first introduced.
The sensor you installed is taking the place of the barometric sensor so it is fooling the computer resistance wise to not allow it to ever open the EGR flow.
Just keep in mind the manufacturer of the "Ugly Fix" states this is not for Highway use so if your state ever starts inspections on vehicles like yours, you could be fined.
By the way, if you have not modified your engine in any other way, you shouldn't be seeing any exhaust smoke. There could be many causes for the smoke such as air inlet restriction, exhaust back pressure to high, or your injectors may be worn causing bad atomization of the fuel so not all the fuel is being burned at time of firing in the cylinder. I will say though, if you change the injectors you will probably see a reduction in power due to the fact the amount of fuel will be decreased, but economy can be increased. (The tip of the injector holds a set amount of fuel, as they wear the fuel quantity in the tip goes up slightly hence the increase in power, but the tip is worn so the atomization is broken down as the holes are bigger, the fuel that gets pushed through the bigger holes, so it can't "spray" properly and this causes smoke.) Black smoke is incomplete burnt diesel fuel.
Air inlet restriction could be as simple as a dirty air filter or as complex as air routing through a grill partially blocked by added equipment. Exhaust back pressures are commonly caused by modifications to the exhaust system to reroute a pipe for body changes or incorrect muffler for an engine. These are easily checked with the correct tools.
Hope this long drawn out message helped you.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:59 PM   #35
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Thanks for the info. I I don't have a black smoke problem, just the normal diesel exhaust. I just thought it might be a little cleaner since EGR isn't recirculating the exhaust. Just glad I don't have one of the later emissions models with the DPF and DEF systems. Those seem to have a lot more reliability and maintenance issue. Mine specifically is the CM870 versionof the ISX, just EGR on mine.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:09 AM   #36
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DPF and DEF is another complication completely. It's pretty bad when the exhaust system cost as much or more than the engine... The facility I am at currently we take care of the "transit" fleet. We have three Freightliner 50 passenger busses with ISC engines and they have about 200,000 miles on them now. The exhaust systems have been working normally up until about three weeks ago and all three of them have been out of service one right after the other for new doser valves, DEF pumps failing, sensors failing, bad level sensor causing power reduction down to three MPH to get them back into town. These units run between the 6 towns driving anywhere between 10 miles and as far as 50 miles per trip. Do the math at 3 MPH when it fails...
Average part prices range from $150 to $950 depending on what failed. The computer software is an annual subscription fee of $1000. All in the name of cleaner air... Let's think about that for a minute...Lets see we trap the "bad stuff" in a filter (DPF: Diesel Particulate Filter) using a chemical (DEF: Diesel Exhaust Fluid) by a chemical reaction, which is then periodically removed to be cleaned for a fee by a local dealer in their oven to cook the trapped material out of the filter to put it where...Back in the air...
What was that saying about the definition of insanity?
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