Join Truck Conversion Today
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-07-2016, 01:18 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default toad brakes?!

Ok, now I am circling the idea of a toad. However, I confess that I am mystified by the braking options. All the RVers are quite pleased with SMI Air force 1 brakes, but I don't understand how it works on the coach side.

I am certain that I am really missing something here, but why isn't there a toad controller that just uses a glad hand connection, rather than a bunch of elaborate plumbing on the motorhome?
__________________

__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2016, 03:48 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
samcrimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Tullahoma
Posts: 361
Default

RV Tow Bars - NSA RV Products

I use this and it works great? bought it on a rv site.

Sam
__________________

__________________
2005 Renegade #1204 42 footer Columbia M3200CH-435,12 speed auto Cat 12 kw Genset, Roadtrip Mission in-mot Dish Network, Washer dryer combo, Jeep Liberty toad,1973 Cessna Skylane,1955 Chev 210 Belair survivor
samcrimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2016, 09:01 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default

I like the looks of that. Thanks
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2016, 09:01 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

what TOAD are you gonna pull?

do you already have your tow bar? I picked up a nice BlueOx (aluminum) Adventa tow bar for about 400 bucks (with the optional, but necessary, $450 base plates from a former owner).

heres a nice Falcon bar in Dallas for $500 as an example (just search for blueox, blue ox or towbar, tow bar).

Heres another one for $150

I (finally) bought a brake buddy VANTAGE (craigslist) for $250 (about 20% of the cost of a new unit)....it had the remote and the nice carrying bag.

there are some on EBAY - just to give you an idea of the pricing

heres one in Dallas - again just to give you an idea of pricing / availability etc.

The thing LOOKED like it hadn't been used at very much, all i had to add buy was a break away switch like this one (i pieced my own together for about 10 bucks. Trailer dot com has some even cheaper

I'd love to have the SMI system but then its only good for towing our (JEEP) toad by coach.

w/ the brake buddy (and my tow bar) i can confidently (and safely) tow the jeep behind anything w/ a receiver hitch (ala my F350 etc).

all this said - the ONLY reason I use the supplemental braking system on the toad is to avoid a liability issue (if my hitch should ever break loose or the grade 70 safety chains and clevis hooks should fail).



__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2016, 09:48 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
samcrimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Tullahoma
Posts: 361
Default

I bought my brake buddy on a for sale section on an rv site. i got both the buddy and the brakeway for less than 200.00. it was a great deal. i got my blue ox tow bar off lsn.

Had to pay retail for the jeep base plate, and you tube on how to put it on, that was so easy. I have tow this with my chev truck and works great too. I need a base plate for my 55 now....lol

Like Don i dont need the braking system with this rig, but i sure did with my dutchman
I dont notice it behind me till i mess up and wish i could back up a few feet!

Sam
Attached Thumbnails
tmp_16987-IMG_44831010799678.jpg  
__________________
2005 Renegade #1204 42 footer Columbia M3200CH-435,12 speed auto Cat 12 kw Genset, Roadtrip Mission in-mot Dish Network, Washer dryer combo, Jeep Liberty toad,1973 Cessna Skylane,1955 Chev 210 Belair survivor
samcrimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2016, 10:07 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samcrimm View Post

....I dont notice it behind me till i mess up and wish i could back up a few feet!

Sam

HA ! Ive lived your mistakes!

reality is i've only had to pull the toad (2 pins) to back up and disconnect maybe twice.

Once because mis-read a truck stop entrance and ended up in a gas station (I'm a slut for cheap fuel)... that was right next to the truckstop entrance.

that station was so small (and i was already committed) i was locked in as soon as i entered....no biggie, i took on fuel that was much cheaper than the truck stop....disconnected the toad/jeep (while fueling the 1st tank), put the wife in the jeep and had her wait for me at the station exit.....all this allowed me to back up & reposition / fill the other side tank and then make my exit.

the second time i missed the entrance for a campground....and rather drive a few miles (looking for a turn around or loop), i found a place i could back the coach in & turn around....again, pull 2 pins a cable & 2 chain hooks and the wife is in the jeep driving it to the campground.

it takes me more time to unlock and start the jeep than it does to connect/disconnect the jeep from the coach.
__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 08:29 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default

The issue of not being able to back up and fix a turn has been a concern of mine. I confess that I have already shorted two turns that required a little back up adjustment.

All that aside, what I am really concerned about is all the extra equipment that must be installed in the toad for some of the braking systems. The simplicity of the system Samcrimm recommended might be the ticket for me. I too believe it is more of a compliance/liability issue than an actual braking issue, so I want to keep alterations to the toad to a minimum.

I want to make a toad of my F350, but I'm having difficulty locating a baseplate for it, since it is so old. We are also considering an older suburban as a toad candidate. I guess it is safe to say that the vehicle is up in the air, I just know it has to seat six with some room for gear.

I was trying to gather a better understanding of how the various toad braking systems work. I like the surge hitch/cable system for its simplicity. The Air force one looks slick, but i don't want to install all that gear in the toad, to still just have it pull the brake pedal.

I guess I was overthinking it, figuring there would be something more elegant that would directly interface with he toad's braking system and be actuated by the TC's air braking or electric braking system with no alterations to the TC.
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 11:32 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
samcrimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Tullahoma
Posts: 361
Default

I was pleased how easy it was to drill two little holes in the floor board, and i think i have a clean neat front set up. F350, better check how you can tow that 4 down, 2 down or tow it with out removing the drive shaft. i bought a tow dolly first then read the owners manual and learned i could not tow it 2 down.... i pulled the drive shaft a couple of times and the last one was in the rain....
I was just not want to spend 3000 to tow. then i started learning and put together the set up i have now. i did this set up for less than 900.00 the base plate was the most, had to buy new. here are day time pixs of my set up, hoping you get the set up that works the best for you. The more info you have the better you are in making the right move.
Sam
Attached Thumbnails
tmp_1391-IMG_44951010799678.jpg   tmp_1391-IMG_44941015461593.jpg   tmp_1391-IMG_4489-1911894495.jpg   tmp_1391-IMG_4486-1311281581.jpg  
__________________
2005 Renegade #1204 42 footer Columbia M3200CH-435,12 speed auto Cat 12 kw Genset, Roadtrip Mission in-mot Dish Network, Washer dryer combo, Jeep Liberty toad,1973 Cessna Skylane,1955 Chev 210 Belair survivor
samcrimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 12:37 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

How does that ReadyBrake system work when you're coasting down a long grade...looks to me like the ReadyBrake will apply the brakes when the vehicle coasts forward against the hitch?
How does the ready brake apply the brakes proportionally (hard) in an panic or hard stop? It seem the ready brake system only has one breaking level.

There are a few alternative more permanent mount solutions (some air, some electric):

RoadMaster BrakeMaster and Invisibrake
BrakeBuddy Stealth

as much as i wanted an AIR over Air braking system for our TOAD, most of them limit you to the vehicle that its (permanently) installed in & then it can only be towed by the coach.

With a more portable system (ala BrakeBuddy Vantage / Vantage Select or Blue OX Patriot you have the advantage of being able to use it in any TOAD or tow your TOAD with any other (non airbrake) vehicle that has a receiver hitch (ala my f350 etc).
__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 12:57 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
samcrimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Tullahoma
Posts: 361
Default

It the lever thru the cable pulls the brake pedal, so a slight push applies a light braking, so the harder the toad goes against hitch the harder it pulls brake.
The lever is not all on when pressure is applied.
Did that help?
Sam


QUOTE=bushpilot;45074]How does that ReadyBrake system work when you're coasting down a long grade...looks to me like the ReadyBrake will apply the brakes when the vehicle coasts forward against the hitch?
How does the ready brake apply the brakes proportionally (hard) in an panic or hard stop? It seem the ready brake system only has one breaking level.

There are a few alternative more permanent mount solutions (some air, some electric):

RoadMaster BrakeMaster and Invisibrake
BrakeBuddy Stealth

as much as i wanted an AIR over Air braking system for our TOAD, most of them limit you to the vehicle that its (permanently) installed in & then it can only be towed by the coach.

With a more portable system (ala BrakeBuddy Vantage / Vantage Select or Blue OX Patriot you have the advantage of being able to use it in any TOAD or tow your TOAD with any other (non airbrake) vehicle that has a receiver hitch (ala my f350 etc).[/QUOTE]
__________________
2005 Renegade #1204 42 footer Columbia M3200CH-435,12 speed auto Cat 12 kw Genset, Roadtrip Mission in-mot Dish Network, Washer dryer combo, Jeep Liberty toad,1973 Cessna Skylane,1955 Chev 210 Belair survivor
samcrimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 01:05 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samcrimm View Post
It the lever thru the cable pulls the brake pedal, so a slight push applies a light braking, so the harder the toad goes against hitch the harder it pulls brake.
The lever is not all on when pressure is applied.
Did that help?
Sam
I understand how it works, yes. My point is there must be limited travel forward (and backwards) on the hitch and the readybrake mechanism.

how much can the cable be pulled? an inch?

what happens on coasting down a hill (where i don't apply my coach brakes) but the TOAD "catches" up to the coach (and inch or two) against the hitch "slack"?

I wonder, down a long grade (christansburg va / i81 comes to mind) the toad brakes will be unnecessarily applied (even when my coach brakes are not).
__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:03 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bushpilot View Post
I understand how it works, yes. My point is there must be limited travel forward (and backwards) on the hitch and the readybrake mechanism.

how much can the cable be pulled? an inch?

what happens on coasting down a hill (where i don't apply my coach brakes) but the TOAD "catches" up to the coach (and inch or two) against the hitch "slack"?

I wonder, down a long grade (christansburg va / i81 comes to mind) the toad brakes will be unnecessarily applied (even when my coach brakes are not).
I'm hoping that the cable could be adjusted to tolerate a certain amount of travel before activating the toad brakes. I guess you would sacrifice some low speed braking, but it could mitigate the down hill issue somewhat, and the brakes would still be there when you really needed them.
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:30 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel View Post
I'm hoping that the cable could be adjusted to tolerate a certain amount of travel before activating the toad brakes. I guess you would sacrifice some low speed braking, but it could mitigate the down hill issue somewhat, and the brakes would still be there when you really needed them.
let me say I'm NOT against the ReadyBrake, but i think its probably worth mentioning that its not a progressive brake system....its nothing more than a SURGE brake.

the problem i see w/ the ReadyBrake - is that it is NOT a brake away braking system.

we really don't need brakes in a toad w/ our coaches...ive pulled all over the place (7% grades) w/out any supplemental (toad) braking and never had a problem.

what I'm MOST concerned with is the liability (and death) associated w/ the toad breaking away, and the ready brake does nothing to resolve that concern.

This video (below) shows theres only about 3/4 of an inch of movement between activation and non-activation, so theres only gonna be 3/4 to 1/2 an inch of brake pedal movement.

Ive never measured how much my brake pedal moves when i apply my brakes while driving (in my toad) but 1/2 - 3/4 of an inch isn't much.



i know its hard to interpret from a drawling but there can't be much slack in that cable.

__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:30 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default

Just learned that although my F350 will tow four down with no driveline disconnect, it has a towing speed restriction of 55mph!
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:32 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default

They offer a breakaway for that installation that pulls and holds the brake cable with a separate cable.
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:34 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spotsylvania
Posts: 370
Default



I think there is some travel to work with. Bear in mind, I don't have one yet. I'm just doing the diligence.
__________________
2006 Renegade/Freightliner Coronado 43', Detroit, twin screw, 12spd
2001 Ford Excursion PSD
2017 Ford F450
petrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:41 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel View Post
Just learned that although my F350 will tow four down with no driveline disconnect, it has a towing speed restriction of 55mph!
i think the Jeep Wrangler has a similar restriction....i don't know why (other than liability) they even bother to say such a thing.

I drive our Jeep (and f350 along w/ all the other vehicles) over that limit ALL the time. Ive had NO issue exceeding the speed limit while towing our Jeep.

Technically speaking all the coach and truck tire manufactures say their tires are not rated for speeds over 70mph......lawyers
__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:52 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
bushpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tomball
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel View Post
They offer a breakaway for that installation that pulls and holds the brake cable with a separate cable.
which requires additional installation (hole in the firewall) and additional hardware.



the nice thing about the BrakeBuddy Vantage & Roadmaster Patriot systems is that the brake away is activated by a switch (absence of the switch cause an electrical closed circuit) which activates the Brake system inside the toad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel View Post
I think there is some travel to work with. Bear in mind, I don't have one yet. I'm just doing the diligence.
the instructional video says no more than 2 inches of slack in the cable...but if you have that much slack in the cable and the activation occurs w/in 3/4 of an inch i don't see how your gonna get activation of the cable. Maybe I'm being too logical - 2 inches of slack and 3/4 of an inch activation means theres still at least 1 1/4 inches of slack.

__________________
Don R.
'04 Haulmark (M42386) 42', 2 slide, 10kw - Pictures
'04 F350 CrewCab Longbed 4x4, 50g aux tank & gear vendors dbl over
bushpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 07:41 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
samcrimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Tullahoma
Posts: 361
Default

When i towed behind the dutchman 31p, i could feel the toad when i stopped. i live on a mountain road and normally the only time i felt the jeep liberty was when i touched the brakes. so if the toad pushed against the brake system it was not noticeable. i have panic stopped and the toad stopped great, no push at all. i adjusted the cable where it almost activate the brakes, and it was tighter than 2".

It took several tries to adjust the cable just right on the dutchman, the renagade i made it loose. I have the breakway hooked up for the safety factor. I have used this set up for almost 3 years and trust it.

Oh an when i tow the toad with my chev. I really know it and it a good thing it has the brake system.
__________________
2005 Renegade #1204 42 footer Columbia M3200CH-435,12 speed auto Cat 12 kw Genset, Roadtrip Mission in-mot Dish Network, Washer dryer combo, Jeep Liberty toad,1973 Cessna Skylane,1955 Chev 210 Belair survivor
samcrimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 10:16 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Grand Forks BC Canada
Posts: 167
Default

I installed the Roadmaster Brakemaster for both the Wrangler and 2010 Silverado. Why complicate the system, I got air brakes on truck so why not have an air actuator for the toad brakes. No electrical charge line, just basic wiring and simple in and out for the cylinder.
__________________

Gordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×